Rewiring the American Banking System with Phill Rosen of MoneyLion
Will creating marketplaces and cross-connecting products within financial institutions guarantee success in the fintech industry? In this episode of PayPod, host Jacob Hollabaugh sits down with Phill Rosen of MoneyLion to discuss the challenges and strategies in the financial services industry. MoneyLion is a financial technology company that’s not a bank. Watch this episode for a fun interesting dive into this latest development in payments and fintech.
Payments & Fintech Insights In This Episode
- Creating marketplaces and cross-connecting products within financial institutions can lead to success in the fintech industry.
- Delivering accessible and engaging content is crucial in creating a positive user experience.
- Cryptocurrency integration in financial services is becoming increasingly important to provide a comprehensive experience for users.
- Platform layers play a significant role in facilitating connectivity and data exchange in the fintech industry.
- And SO much more!
Today’s Guest
Phill Rosen : MoneyLion
MoneyLion was founded in 2013 with the belief that we all get ahead when nobody gets left behind. They are here for the millions of Americans who’ve long been ignored — or even taken advantage of — by traditional banks. They are rewiring the American banking system to make money more approachable and to give consumers a more accessible and sustainable path to their goals.
Featured on the Show
About PayPod
PayPod is the leading voice in the payments and fintech industry, covering payments, risk management and new technology. Host Jacob Hollabaugh interviews leaders who are shaping the payments and fintech world, as they discuss the latest developments in the payments and fintech industry.
Episode Transcript
Jacob: Welcome to PayPod, the Payments Industry podcast. Each week, we’ll bring you in-depth conversations with leaders who are shaping the payments and fintech world from payment processing to risk management and from new technology to entirely new payment types. If you want to know what’s happening in the world of fintech and payments, you’re in the right place. Hello, everyone. Welcome to PayPod. I’m your host, Jacob Hollabaugh. And today on the show, we’re going to be discussing the entire American banking and financial system and how it could use some updates, a rewiring, if you will, and what a more consumer focused system may look like, which is something I certainly like the sound of as a consumer myself. Joining me to wade through this topic is Phill Rosen, global CTO at MoneyLion, the app offering to be the only money app you need personalizing tools, tips, and offers to control every money moment in your life. Phill, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Phill: Thanks so much for having me.
Jacob: Pleasure is all mine. I’m very excited for this conversation and where it’s going to start here in the general theme of it, which is let’s start with MoneyLion’s mission statement, because it’s a big, bold mission in one I am very much a fan of and supporter of, at least in the idea of it and want to actually alluded to just now in that introduction, the MoneyLion mission statement is at least as I pulled from the website, rewire the American banking system so that we can positively change the financial path for every hard working American. So with that statement comes a few questions from me, the first of which is what does all of that mean? Can you explain what that mission is and what it kind of means to you and the company?
Phill: Yeah, sure. So the United States financial system is massive. It’s incredibly complex. It has a ton of regulation, some of it very good and necessary, some of it a little bit encumbering. And then a lot of very large legacy institutions who have gotten that large by really aligning what they do to a overserved portion of the American consumer base that is well-educated or has a meaningfully large amount of assets. And on top of that, there is not the same sort of ubiquitous availability of products within them that necessarily cover all of a consumer’s needs. Right? The products are often siloed banks, insurance, all these different products. You usually have the pantheon of companies who you’re getting your financial products from as American consumer. So the MoneyLion mission about rewiring the banking system is really about trying to create new experiences that are able to serve every consumer across all of their emerging moment need, even if they don’t necessarily come with a massive amount of assets or the deepest experience and education and financial literacy. So that means not just really bringing these products and making them available to people otherwise not might not have been able to access them, but it also means giving them accessible and understandable advice and guidance and lessons that hopefully is also entertaining to help them do that. I think that if you certainly look at a lot of the content that’s out there, it is dry. It’s not something that a lot of people want to pay attention to. I think a lot of people hate their banks. A lot of people hate thinking about their finances because it can also be very frustrating, embarrassing and come with all sorts of emotions. And so if you can not only diversify and democratize access to products, but combine that with the lessons that can be understood by anyone and everyone and sort of deleverage that emotional weight, that’s a really big change from how banking has been done in America historically.
Jacob: Yeah, and you mentioned an interesting there’s a lot of interesting follow ups to that. But one of them people might hate or have some hate towards their banks or financial institution, which makes me kind of begs the question, how difficult is it for you and MoneyLion to actually convince consumers that you are different, that at the end you’re offering the products you might be making them accessible to them where they’ve never had it before, but if they do have some of that distrust or dislike in them for financial institutions, what is the kind of path to convincing them that, hey, we are different? We actually do have you and your needs in mind, even if you don’t believe that to be true about any other bank or financial institution you’ve ever worked with, what’s the path to convincing them of that?
Phill: Yeah, I mean, I think there are two main parts of it, right? Maybe three. One is it can’t just sort of be about a brand, right? You can put that on the brand identity all you want, but then there has to be a great deal of follow up across a number of places where you actually really deliver on that mission and that value. And I think one place that is rarely emphasized is actually delivering accessible content that is engaging and gets rid of that emotional weight. Right? If you can actually bring these lessons and educations and explain things so that people actually get what’s going on and are able to make better choices and not have it be in the traditional wealth manager or robo advisor phase, but in the ten 30s of engagement that they have when they’re going through their various social media or quick hits to actually see what’s going. On in the world around them, make it part of that daily engaging cycle they’re in. The second part is about actually being able to deliver products. And one of the reasons why a lot of financial institutions are disliked is because they are saying no to so many people who need their product. That is a problem inherent in credit. It’s one that we haven’t fully escaped, but it’s one that we’ve been able to be much better at for a couple of reasons.
Phill: One is we’ve come up with some innovative credit products that are able to serve a much bigger audience base of consumers without carrying the baggage of like the historical euceros and really abusive payday loans and term loans, right? So giving that product and making credit available. But credit is only one component, right? The other thing is then delivering on that by not simply pushing our own products, right? If you actually go into the MoneyLion experience, you will see that companies that many people would consider are competitors, are actually having their services recommended. And that’s because MoneyLion the consumer experience isn’t about delivering only moneyLion products. It’s about figuring out what a consumer needs and delivering them the best solution, no matter who’s providing it, even if it’s somebody who’s ostensibly a competitor, right? So some really big brands and our app and that you would say, Oh, this is a competitor when in reality they’re part of the solution set that we’re trying to give consumers if it’s the right fit. So being that neutral, unbiased actor who’s willing to follow through by saying this is actually what’s best for you and we’re willing to deliver it to you, even if it’s not from us. Combined with that very quick, approachable, accessible messaging is really core to our strategy of delivering on that mission.
Jacob: Yeah, I love that you mentioned that second half because I actually had that experience myself when kind of doing some research in advance of this conversation and looking around the website and everything and had a moment of like, Man, they really do like have a lot of partnerships here and are recommending people that like you said, I would think of as competitors to some of the products that you offer. And that was the kind of moment where I started believing in the mission statement that we’ve been talking about and kind of starting to be like, I feel like I’m going to believe this company and this person that I’m talking to and seeing that. And I think that would be kind of one of the linchpin going to see.
Phill: Citibank recommend Wells Fargo, right? Yeah, that’s just and they’re going to do everything they can to keep you in the ecosystem. Right. And keep you from leaving their little garden of products, even if they can’t serve every need you have, which is really not in the best interest of the consumer. And honestly, I actually don’t think it’s in the best interest of the bank. When we when we look at engine by MoneyLion, formerly even the company I started, the success of that company was built on actually creating marketplaces and cross connecting products within financial institutions and letting them broaden a set of value that they could deliver. And the fintechs really embraced it quickly, which isn’t a surprise. They’re more nimble, they’re more willing to take risks. There’s a bigger revenue imperative. And now we’re actually starting to see that be embraced more and more by traditional banks. So those banks are now starting to get that actually this is necessary. They’re never going to go to the extent that MoneyLion is with their product set, but they may start saying, Oh, we’re not going to offer life insurance or we’re not going to offer robo or we’re not going to offer earned wage access and start to look outside their walls to solve those needs for their consumers built on platforms like Engine.
Jacob: Yeah. And that comes back to, you know, you mentioned before being able to deliver on the products themselves that building some more of that consumer trust that is lacking sometimes in this industry goes to hey, it means a lot if you tell them this product of ours is right for you, but this over here, you should go check out this company or this company because it’s better and we want you to have a good experience versus if we just shove only our products down your throat and you have a bad experience with it, or you realize, hey, that other company would have been better for me. Now, now maybe I don’t want to work with you with any of your products versus really trusting that, like if you tell me your product is the best for this use, I actually believe you because previously you’ve told me it was a different company, it was the best. And that big turned.
Phill: Out big trust factor. Yeah, and we’ve seen that play out actually really shows up in the numbers, right? When a financial institution starts putting a marketplace inside their experience, you would the concern is they’re going to lose the customer. The reality is it drives engagement and retention. So it has exactly the opposite of the sort of expected effect.
Jacob: Yeah, it brings you back in for even if that first time they’re there, they end up using a product from someone else. I’m going to come back to you when I need the next product to find out again and go through your marketplace and at least build that retention of awareness and bringing you into the funnel to eventually end up with some of your products down the line and build up that really consumer trust. So being the one stop shop that you are obviously through a lot of marketplaces and partnerships and we’ll get to the. Partnerships a little more here in a second, but you are still that one shot stop shop or kind of at front first face value are and offer a lot of variety of products and services. And that’s a really big undertaking, even if doing a lot of it through marketplace or partnerships and one that kind of goes against a little bit a trend that we talk about a lot on this show of niching down and doing one thing really, really well, which is a lot of the companies we talk to on the show, how they kind of operate in the last half decade to decade, the kind of everything has a service model really, really proliferated, niching down, doing the one thing versus the consolidation or maybe even the marketplace type of trend. What advantages or disadvantages come with being a company that is trying to offer so much to the consumer versus being the company that is just going to say, we’re going to do one simple thing really, really well, which you’ve kind of had experience with both now that your original company like you said, bought in and bringing into Moneyline and now a part of the big, big suite of offerings?
Phill: Yeah, I mean, I think, as you said, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. And, you know, there’s also sort of the euphemism that, you know, there’s two ways to make money by either bundling services or unbundling services.
Jacob: Yeah.
Phill: And so they’re both valid strategies. I think that we saw a lot of unbundling and niching down, as you say, over the last ten years because that’s really the most accessible entry point for new competitors. Be excellent at one thing, and then every single one of them, if you look at their pitch decks or what they’re talking about to investors, is saying we’re eventually going to add these complementary products and become more of a comprehensive solution. They’re all going to tell you that, yeah, once we build up that consumer base and we have their trust and we have them in there, we’re going to start adding on to the product suite. Now the reality is that base does make it a more approachable to add additional products, but this is financial services and there’s a high level of specialization that goes beyond just the core function of those products. In order to make them viable and profitable. They have very different marketing and sales strategies. They have very different customer support strategies. They might have different customer profiles. A company that starts and earned wage access may really struggle to get into financial advisory because those are two very, very different consumers. And so expanding your product set beyond that initial niche down. One is something that many, if not most companies have not been able to do, right? It’s a very small set that we’ve seen do it.
Phill: Obviously, companies like Sofi have done it. MoneyLion has done it in the sense that we do have at the cornerstone instant cash, but then we have banking, financial advisory, manage investing, active investing, crypto cash management, right? There’s the full suite there, but it is operationally expensive to do all of it to a level of perfection that is going to achieve real profits. So that’s where partnerships start coming into place. But the problem with partnerships is it the the easy version of it is really, really hard to actually get any big value out of because all you’re doing is referring somebody over on what is essentially an advertisement. Right? So how do you you need to find a way to do a partnership that is deeper than that, that gives you a level of connectivity, data exchange and really appropriate matching of the consumer to that product such that it’s me the consumer needs is scalable and maintainable, right? And that’s where Engine came in, was that we built out those very tight integrations to a couple hundred financial institutions and made it easy to access all of them in that deep connectivity motion through a single integration into engine. That’s why Engine was really necessary to come in and fill that gap. And this isn’t the first industry to actually see this. The exact same thing happened with travel search prior to the fintech boom.
Phill: We saw all of these travel comparison sites, marketplaces, some specializing in flights, some in cars, some tried to bundle, and they all started to bring in partnerships. We’ve got Kayak, which will pop up competitors and now they’re getting paid for that. But what’s interesting is underneath all of them was a common infrastructure layer called, I think Eita Eita was one of them. There are a couple others that were actually providing the platform capabilities to hook into a lot of that flight data, hotel data and car rental data that made it all viable. And that’s a lot of what we’re seeing within fintech, a variety of platform layers that do that. You obviously have the plaids and ethnicities who are doing it to let you get access to the data. You have the engines of the world who let you connect into those products in a deep way. And then of course, you have all sorts of data enhancing products that complement that and let you do enrichment. So it is a repeated pattern. This isn’t a new thing that we’re seeing happen in fintech. The difference is the level of regulatory overhead we have because in America we functionally have 51 different regulatory regimes. Yeah, right. For a lot of these products. So that makes a level of complexity that. It is just off the charts compared to anything else.
Jacob: Yeah, it’s certainly the biggest frustration and sometimes the biggest. We speak with a lot of international guests are working in different international markets and every time you’ll see the smile come across, we’re like, It’s difficult here, but it’s not as difficult as it would be operating in the States or operating in the states first because of 51, like you said, 51 different rules and regulations that you have to abide by.
Phill: Yeah, you’ve got then you’ve got a different regulatory 51 for credit. You’ve got 51 different ones for mortgage, for insurance, for banking products, right? So if you’re doing a full suite of products, right, that potentially means you’re looking at basically 200 different regulatory frameworks. Yeah, that’s going to be on top of your information security regulatory frameworks. And then if you’re public on top of all of that auditing and accountability. So this is there is so much that is just underestimated that honestly has nothing to do with tech initially, although a lot of it can be solved through tech that just people don’t really account for when they think about these products.
Jacob: Yeah. And I want to come back to that point and just one moment, but before we do, to tie up kind of the talk about the partners and everything with all of these partners that you have and the importance of being able to connect with them, get their data, everything like that. What makes for a good partner in the financial world? What made for when you were building out engine that made for the people you wanted to integrate with? And are there any things on the flip side of that you’re trying to avoid in a partnership or make for a maybe we don’t want to work with you?
Phill: Well, what made personal loans, which is where we started uniquely good as a starting point, was the fact that in a lot of ways it was brand new and that it had been neglected by banks versus credit cards, which is obviously a massive established industry. And this manifested in some key differences, which is that all of these new companies and lending were willing to build APIs that would let their products be embedded in third parties. There isn’t actually much of a regulatory difference between credit cards and personal loans, but there is a very, very big difference in the institutional flexibility of the companies offering those products, right? If you go to a big credit card issuer in 2018 and say, I want to embed a pre-approved credit card offer from you into my app in a comparison marketplace, it’s really hard to get that partnership. They might have built the API. They probably don’t know where in the organization it is, but there’s going to be so much competing prioritization about a strategy about whether to do that. So this willingness to actually engage in deep integrations and start collaborating on data to make the program successful is what makes them successful. And the partners who we’ve seen had the most success both with Engine and with MoneyLion are the ones who are really willing to get deep into the data and collaborate and say, We’re going to be transparent and figure out how to tune this because credit products and insurance products are not like selling shoes. If someone wants to buy a pair of shoes, you can sell it to them. No matter what credit and insurance you are rejecting probably 70% of the people who want to buy it. So you have to have that level of collaboration around data in order to make the economics work.
Jacob: Yeah, certainly. So let’s turn to your being the CTO and having built some incredible tech over a career, your career, I think you might have already answered this a few minutes ago, speaking about all of the regulatory, but just in case there’s a different answer or a second answer to that, are there areas within the world of finance that stand out as just the hardest, making it harder to build tech compared to other building tech and some other application and some other industry? Any specific hurdles that are unique to the financial world when building technical applications?
Phill: Yeah, obviously we spoke about the regulatory challenges, but then of course there’s a lot more sensitivity around the data as well as the function. If you lose somebody order on a retail site, it’s bad, but it’s not catastrophic. It was somebody’s bank account balance that is catastrophic. So there is a level of reliability that just has a different standard. When you get to that. There’s also a very different standard about accuracy. I don’t want to get too technical, but if you’re getting into programming a banking app and you’re not using something that is going to be statically typed or something else like that, then you’re going to potentially have a problem because the data or the structures or the systems aren’t as reliable. So there is a higher level of scrutiny that has to be given to your technical choices, right? And also a more conservative approach to building because the consequences are so much more severe. And then I also think that, again, it comes back to people’s. Trust, but also the emotional complexity of financial choices. These are highly emotional decisions that are people are making. And so when you’re building tech to address that, they have to have all sorts of trust signals built into it and customer service capabilities built into it. Right. And transparency into what’s happening with their data and their information and their money that goes with it that you don’t have to have elsewhere.
Jacob: Yeah, certainly. Well, it’s a it’s a high, high risk world. And I envy you for being willing to step up to the challenge to operate in it and bring great products and tech to consumers like myself. Let’s do our final pivot to talk about some kind of big trends of the last few years that also portend to be kind of big drivers of the future of the financial ecosystem. Starting with crypto you did reference earlier MoneyLion does offer a connection to a popular crypto exchange. Where does crypto integration in education kind of fall on money lines, priorities for the future? And what role do you or the company see crypto or blockchain technology having in that mission to rewire the banking system?
Phill: Well, yeah. I mean, first of all, crypto is natively integrated into the MoneyLion app. There’s a wallet you can buy and sell a number of cryptocurrencies. It’s pretty full featured. And you know, I think that’s because there is it is obviously an asset class that has a lot more popular appeal, right. Than, let’s say, ETFs, right? If you go to your average 25 year old or 30 year old, which is a big part of our consumer base, right. Then they’re going to have a lot more knowledge, probably just from the popular zeitgeist of crypto. So it’s something that you kind of have to do, I think, in order to actually say you’re comprehensive. Now I certainly think that major banks would disagree with that. But I think from where we sit it actually is like another core financial service product and asset class and potentially payment mechanism in some cases that people are expecting more and more to be a part of any financial services experience. But when it comes to the bigger crypto trends, to be candid, I’m not an expert on crypto, right? It’s something that I personally haven’t gotten super deep on because to me, a lot of it seems so incredibly speculative and I actually haven’t seen real utility actually come out of most of it, right? If I actually look at a lot of the popular projects and all the promises they make and then say, okay, where is a real world application where this has been implemented and is working at scale to do something valuable that can’t be done through another mechanism, probably cheaper.
Phill: There’s a real shortage of examples of that. And I think it’s kind of interesting to see how AI has gone, which is really different, which is big hype phase. And then we immediately started seeing real world applications in value, maybe not to the level of the hype, but within our engineering stack, AI is something that we are using for software development. It’s something that we use for our credit products and fraud detection, right? It’s all over the place and there are so many companies building things that have real world application immediately following the hype cycle. And that just hasn’t been the case with crypto in my opinion.
Jacob: Yeah, with the crypto side. And we’ll come back to the AI part. I do agree and it is a good comparison to make of like the big trendy topic of the year or so actually coming through and immediately finding ways to adopt it and implement it and show use cases to the common consumer with the crypto side, the tech side of that, like just with blockchain technology in general, do you feel similar?
Phill: I haven’t seen great real world examples. There’s some, but I haven’t seen a large number of real world examples that’s actually solved a problem we couldn’t solve before. Yeah, that makes sense, right? Like a lot of this can be solved with just a database. Yeah, right. And the distributed component of that, while interesting and cool for some use cases, is not necessary for many of them.
Jacob: Yeah, certainly. Okay, cool. Let’s move then to the AI and data along with it because I’ve, I’ve finally retired my overused joke of having to ask about AI because it’s just 2023 and I’m required to, but it has felt like this year in 2023, both AI and I feel like data have gone mainstream. Obviously data of some kind has been around literally forever and AI has been around for a little while. But I feel like this is the year that mainstream adoption and general public acceptance of both the power of data and the fact that data runs everything and then the possibility of AI have really hit their peak and fully accepted and fully like taken as truth, so to speak. So starting with data, you’ve talked about it a lot throughout this conversation. What do you if you could sum it up, what do you think the importance of data to a tech engineer like yourself? To a company like MoneyLion is. And would you agree with the sentiment that at this point data does run our world?
Phill: Yeah, I would agree with that as obviously an essential component for any business at scale. I think we’re at the point where that’s a given. What actually is really been hard for a lot of companies to embrace is the obligations that come with having it and the requirements to actually making it useful. It’s actually for a lot of companies, getting the data isn’t the hard part, but how do you, from a technical perspective, actually leverage it across all the applications and use cases you want to? And then how do you do that in a way that is permissioned and compliant both with what consumer expectations are and what the regulations are? That actually is the biggest challenge to actually using data at scale. It’s not necessarily getting the data. And then especially within the fintech world, there’s a lot of use cases where you could have data and it could really help consumers, but you are not going to be able to use it. Whether or not it’s an AI makes it another level of complication, But all sorts of data all of a sudden, if you use it wrong, ends up in Fcra territory, which is for the credit bureau regulations. And that’s a whole can of worms that just sort of precludes using it. Then there’s all sorts of things about if you use data to make a credit decision, you need to be really certain that it isn’t going to have an adverse impact on certain cohorts. And if you’re using AI to do that and you don’t have the explainability, you’re taking on all sorts of risk, right? Because you could find out you might have had no intentions of doing anything discriminatory, but you could find out two years from now when your book is matured that there was some sort of thing in the algorithm which had that effect unintentionally. Right. And that is just a level of risk and complexity that really is a challenge for credit and insurance.
Jacob: Yeah, that cannot explain it either. If you’re like, you know what, we built on the front end, but I don’t know exactly. I can’t actually explain to you or certainly not to be political, but to the people who you might have to go stand in front of and try to plead your case to, that you probably can’t explain and they probably aren’t going to understand either what you try to tell them, how it came to this unfortunate.
Phill: Ignorance and lack ignorance and lack of intent isn’t a defense.
Jacob: Yeah.
Phill: Right. That’s not a defense. Right. Was there a negative impact? If so, you screwed up.
Jacob: Yeah, certainly. So the last part of that then we touched on a few times is the AI front. And you mentioned earlier a few of the ways that Moneyline is already incorporating AI into current present day technologies. Where do you see those tools having the biggest impact on your services and that mission of yours moving forward?
Phill: Well, it’s been a big component in making our financial products so much more widely available. If you look at instant cash, it’s a pretty unique product in that it can really serve so many more people and do it so quickly and in such an automated way. You don’t do that without AI in there making that function. And so we’ve been able to really make that work at scale in a really cool way. But there are all sorts of smaller places. As soon as you get into content, into recommendations, into personalization, right? Then this just becomes immediately valuable. And it’s all live today. It’s all stuff we’re doing today. It’s we’re able to move very, very quickly on that. I think that there is a lot that has to mature for on the technical side in terms of applying it to developer tools and really extracting the maximum amount of value there. We’re pretty far away from that. I think there’s a lot of hype on that and I think that there is it is doing cool things and it is helping, but not necessarily to the level that people think because good programmers have been automating their work for years.
Phill: That’s literally what they do. And this is a new form of automation that’s replacing an old one. So and probably only addressing 20% of their workload. If you make a 2% improvement on 20% of the workload, that’s not a seismic shift. That’s not the way that people are talking about it. That’s not to say it’s not coming. I just think there’s a long way to go. There’s a lot of really cool stuff happening in analytics, right? It’s when we talk about these massive data sets and then trying to derive insights that you can translate into business decisions and actions and empower your employees with massive opportunity to actually do that with AI. And I think there are a bunch of companies that are working on making that really available to everybody. And it’s a hard challenge because everybody’s data is different. It’s not just different data, it’s also structured differently. It’s in different types of places. So how do you pull that all together and make it accessible to anyone in your organization anywhere and also not break any rules?
Jacob: Yeah, certainly. Well, I love. I love the ethos behind MoneyLion and I’m hopeful that you’re going to be one of one of the big companies to take some of these new initiatives and everything and keep them within your mission and your ethos and get a lot of good stuff out to us, the general consumer, because we kind of brushed past the content portion that you referenced a few times. But I will say for anyone listening, the content is good and is worth going and checking out. As someone who has went through a lot of content from a lot of financial institutions and companies to speak with on this show. I definitely really enjoyed and think you guys do a really, really good job with getting that information out there in that content out there. So highly recommend that to everyone. And Phil, this has been a real pleasure For those listening who may want to follow, you may want to learn more about Moneyline, may want to check out some of that content, keep up with you in the company, everything you’ve got going on. Where would be the best place for them to go to do so?
Phill: MoneyLion.com or the app Store for the app engine dot tech for the platform. If you’re a financial service company looking to connect into additional products. I personally do not have a big social media presence, so don’t worry too much about me.
Jacob: Will do. Awesome. Well, we will link to those and anything else in the show notes below. Phill, thank you so much for your time and knowledge today. I’ve greatly enjoyed the conversation and hope to speak to you again sometime soon.
Phill: Thanks very much for having me.
Jacob: If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more, head on over to Soarpay.com/podcast to subscribe on your podcast listening platform of choice. That’s s o a r p a y.com/podcast.