Navigating High-Risk Payments John Tucker on Cash Management and Cannabis Industry Logistics

Episode Overview

John Tucker is a distinguished professional in the payments and fintech industry, boasting over 17 years of experience across various sectors, including high-risk merchant services and secure cash transportation. Starting his career in merchant services, John quickly rose through the ranks, founding First Capital Loans, where he specialized in high-risk payments and merchant cash advances. His expertise spans from creating successful ISO programs to advising on complex payment solutions for businesses operating outside the traditional financial framework. This extensive background laid a solid foundation for his current role at National Secure Transport (NST), where he leverages his deep understanding of payments to enhance the security and efficiency of cash management services.

Currently, John Tucker serves as a key figure at National Secure Transport, a leading provider of secure transportation services for high-value and sensitive cargo, including cash for cannabis businesses and other high-risk sectors. At NST, John focuses on innovative solutions such as smart safes and cashless ATMs, which automate cash handling and provide real-time financial transparency to businesses. His leadership in navigating the complex logistics of cash transportation has positioned NST as a potential fourth-largest armored carrier in the U.S. market. John’s work has been pivotal in expanding NST’s reach beyond traditional markets, particularly into the rapidly evolving cannabis sector.

Beyond his professional achievements, John Tucker is also known for his passion for fintech innovation and his commitment to fostering a safer, more efficient payments landscape. He has been a vocal advocate for leveraging technology to address industry challenges, particularly in sectors that deal heavily in cash transactions and face stringent regulatory scrutiny. His vision includes expanding access to financial services for businesses that operate outside the mainstream banking system, emphasizing the need for security, compliance, and technological advancement. John’s dedication to his field is not just a career but a personal mission to revolutionize cash management and secure transport through innovation and strategic growth.

Episode Transcript

John Tucker: Level one is if you’re not using an armored carrier, you’re going to take that cash, put it into a garbage bag and walk it to the bank. We talk about how risky that is. Level two.

Kevin Rosenquist: Hey, welcome to Paypod, where we bring you conversations with the trailblazers shaping the future of payments and fintech. My name is Kevin Rosenquist, and thanks for listening. John Tucker has been in the payments and fintech industry for over 15 years. He’s seen a lot. And now he’s with National Secure Transport, a company that provides secure transportation services for high value and sensitive cargo as well as cash. We discussed the complex logistics of transporting large amounts of cash, as well as how the cannabis industry relies on services like theirs. So now please welcome John Tucker. So you’ve been involved with fintech in payments for your whole career 17 years. If I did my math right, that’s a long, a long time, man. What? What drew you to the space? Was there anything in particular?

John Tucker: Yeah. So, you know, it’s basically the merchant services industry, right. So, you know, back in the day and it’s still do it today to have a big ISO program. And pretty much if you’re willing and you’re motivated to go in there, be a 1099 agent and pound the pavement. You can create your own brand, your own LLC. You build a portfolio. So I got into payments as an ISO, and ran my own office for ten years. First Capital Loans is what I branded it as. And First Capital Loans was because, you know, so I was doing payments mainly the higher risk payments in terms of merchant accounts. But I also did the merchant cash advance type of sales to add on deck capital in there. So it was a great run for ten years after that I went, was that.

Kevin Rosenquist: Like right out, right out of school? Is that I mean, that’s not the first thing you did was do your own thing.

John Tucker: So it’s not the first thing I did, you know. So I graduated high school. It’s showing my age now in 2001. Right. So kind of.

Kevin Rosenquist: 97. So you got me beat or I got. There you go, man. There you go. Yeah.

John Tucker: You still have hair, though. I have no hair. Well, I kind of.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah. There you go.

John Tucker: But you know. Yeah. So, you know, out of high school, I was still trying to figure out what I wanted to do. You know, if I wanted to go into acting. You know, I was kind of a class clown in high school, so I didn’t know what I wanted to do, but it was a guy that tried to recruit me into merchant services for a while. Right. And I was in college at U of M studying communications. Just, you know, just any degree I just picked. And I didn’t get serious about it until I was about, like, maybe 23 years old, I believe I really got serious about it and really wanted to start to look at my future, build financial freedom and everything and just get my life together right. And I tell people payments and sales in general saved my life, put me on the right path, and today I’m doing very well. Man. You got a nice net worth and big career, nice Advice Network and everything. So it’s more than a job to me, man. It’s more than a career. It’s truly a big part of me. It’s in my blood for the most part.

Kevin Rosenquist: Well, you never know. You could be. You could be in the new Marvel movie. If you’d have gone the acting route, you never know. I don’t know, man.

John Tucker: Like those Avengers, man. You know, they could have created. I love the word tenacity. And so that would have been my superheroes name would have been tenacity.

Kevin Rosenquist: Tenacity? Yeah.

John Tucker: You know, or King grit. I could do that, too. So, . Yeah, but the payments industry, the overall arching fintech industry is so awesome, man. It’s been awesome to me for 17 years. It’s going to be even better, I believe going forward with the rise of the SaaS revolution, embedded payments, embedded fintech in general is just so awesome, man. It’s just I can’t wait to see what.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah. Yeah. Especially. Yeah, with all the technology and the AI and stuff. It’s definitely going to get interesting. , yeah, that’s funny. Like you, I did kind of did the same thing. I went to college for communications because I had no idea what the hell I wanted to do. Right. Right. So the class clown guy and all that. So, like, you know, you went to Michigan, you said.

John Tucker: Yeah. University of Michigan. Yeah. Nice.

Kevin Rosenquist: Nice. Nice. Yeah. I was in Illinois, but Northern Illinois, but. Yeah. So not far from you guys. Not far from you. There you go. Yeah.

John Tucker: You know, I get a lot of heat from the Ohio State guys. I get Michigan State guys, too, you know? So it’s, . Hey, I wear my colors, man.

Kevin Rosenquist: Fresh off a national title. You’ve got all the bragging rights right now.

John Tucker: There you go. There you go. My man, J.J. McCarthy. There you go.

Kevin Rosenquist: . All right. So now you’re with, , National Secure Transport, and, , you guys provide transportation services for high value and sensitive cargo as well as cash. How are you guys differ from the traditional armored car service?

John Tucker: That’s a good question too. So, you know, in the in the US armored car market, you got the big three, you got Brinks, Loomis, Gerda, and then you have pretty much a bunch of other regional carriers that might be just servicing a state or maybe servicing multiple states, but there’s not a clear number for. So what we’re looking to do at National is Secure Transport or NST for short. We’re looking to be the fourth largest armored carrier in the US market in 2018. There was a force. There was a number of fours called the Dunbar. Dunbar armored. But Brinks acquired that armored business from Dunbar. And so there’s no clear number four. So we’re looking to be the clear number four. And in the space we’re working with cash intensive retailers, , basically picking up their cash and doing the deposit processing. We’re also partnered with a lot of financial institutions on the back end for provisional credit into their bank accounts. So it basically automates a lot of the cash handling process for that. Retailers doesn’t have to put a bags of cash in a garbage bag, put it in there, put it in their trunk and drive it to the bank. Right. Because that puts a big target on the bank branch. You know, and it also puts a big target on that retailer. So if they can outsource that to an armored carrier, it’ll reduce risk. It allows their team to focus on sales and marketing and not have to, , maybe have a gun on them as they take 100 K in cash to the bank.

John Tucker: Right. So there’s many ways that we do this. You can use basic cash in transit because it cost CIT. You can also use a smart cities. And a smart save is  I call it the revolution in cash management. , what would a smart save Kevin. Basically that retailer instead of what basic city they’re going to have to spend a lot of time taking that cash, bagging it up, counting it and keeping it in what we call a db safe in the back of the store. But they can’t get access to that. Cash to the armored carrier comes and picks it up, does the counting, recounting, deposit processing, and their bank puts it in their bank account. If they use a smart safe, they’ll feed those notes in on a daily basis. You can have two bulk note feeders or even a single note feeder. You will feed those notes in the money you feed in. And let’s say a Monday will show up in your bank account on Tuesday via provisional credit from that financial. So it gives that retailer, yeah, that next day access to their cash to put it back into the business for marketing, sales, payroll, you know whatever they got to do.

Kevin Rosenquist: So that’s what you mean when on like I was when I was looking at your website, you talked about automating cash management. And I suppose that that’s what you mean by that is being able to, to use the smart safe like you, like you described.

John Tucker: Yeah. You know, we call it you know, there’s different levels to this, right. You know, at least the folks who are younger than me say there’s levels to this stuff. Right? So there’s different levels to it. Level one is if you’re not using an armored carrier, you’re going to take that cash, put it into a garbage bag and walk it to the bank. We talk about how risky that is. Level two is to use basic cash in transit, where you’re going to use an armored transportation company, but you still got to spend time internally Counting, storing it, and bagging the cash. Then level three is to put it in the smart safe. Get daily credit on it. Now the armored carrier will still come out to the location. Let’s say maybe once a week and clear out the contents of the smart safe. But once the cash goes into the smart safe, it’s property of the financial institution. So? So the retailer staff has no access to the internal contents of that smart safe. But the armored carrier will still come under once a week. Clear out the smart safe and then do the deposit processing on the back end for the financial institution. Still going back and forth to the Federal Reserve. Okay.

Kevin Rosenquist: Okay. That makes sense. Yeah, that’s really cool. I mean, that’s,, , you know, because like, to your point, you know, when you deal in cash, you’ve got to wait to, you know, you got to drop it off. You got to deposit it. And then you can start using your account to pay it. But if you can just do it right away, even though the cash is still in there and good, good thing that they can access it because you never you never know how bad that could get.

John Tucker: Yeah, that can get very bad too, because another great benefit Kevin of the smart safe is this, you know, in terms of internal theft issues, a lot of retailers have issues with shrinkage and internal theft. So this puts more checks and balances over that internal cash handling. You know. So if they’re doing level one as we say, walking the cash to the bank or level two or the staff is counting it internally, you know, it could increase the probability of, you know, a staff member putting some money in their pocket or something. So the smart safe, each user is going to have their own Pin code. So when they do a drop they’re going to put their Pin code in there and then do their drop into the smart safe. They’ll get a receipt printed out. So it helps to pre those checks and balances.

Kevin Rosenquist: You have a little audit trail. Yeah.

John Tucker: Yeah. And audit trail. You also get online reporting as well. So that owner of that retail location can log in and in real time, make sure that their team are making the drops into the smart safe. And if let’s say they have a policy you have to drop every hour. If it’s been three hours in, a particular cashier has not made a drop. That means that there’s a lot of cash being stacked up in that cashier’s drawer, right? Yeah. Call that location and say, hey, what’s going on? Yeah, but those checks and balances are awesome. Very cool.

Kevin Rosenquist: I’m going to hit pause here real quick. I keep getting a Johns Otter pilot has entered the waiting room.

John Tucker: You know, if you can decline that because it’s this thing that follows. It’s an AI writer that follows me to every meeting. If you can, you decline it or kick it out or something.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah, yeah. That’s okay. As long as I know I don’t need to let it in, then it’s fine. Yeah.

John Tucker: There you go.It’s just a robot.

Kevin Rosenquist: All right, so let’s talk about weed, marijuana, pot, cannabis. Or as my parents still hilariously call it, grass. LSD works a lot in the cannabis industry, transporting cash, even product lab samples. It’s obviously a very complex industry, to say the least, especially with it being legal in states, but still federally illegal. How difficult is it to navigate the complexities of the logistics in an industry like this?

John Tucker: Yeah. You know, it’s pretty complex, right? Because each state has its own level of regulations and complexities. Right. You know what’s going on in California. You know, California’s kind of have its own monster. New York’s its own monster, right? And so what we have to do as a transportation company, we have to, you know, if we’re going to be transporting cash, we have to have certain licenses for that if we’re going to be doing. We are licensed in about 30 states right now to move cannabis cash. We’re licensed in going to be six states here for product transportation. We’re also building out a good marketplace in new Jersey for product transportation. That’s going to help connect both the cultivation side. So you got the cultivators that are growing the product and then also the dispensaries, the guys who are doing the retail side of things. We’re going to help connect them to a marketplace. But yeah, it’s pretty. It’s pretty complex. And a lot of our clients, you know, you know, you get awarded a license, especially on the dispensary side, you get awarded a license.

John Tucker: But you got to go out there. You got to find your own real estate, you got to find your own funding, and you got to put your SOPs together, your business plan together, and how you’re going to grow this thing. And so we have to go through a lot of those same regulations and, you know, putting a lot of money upfront to get operational, you know, to open a branch, just one branch could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, do cash transportation in a particular state. And then we have to go through all the licensing process, which could take months. Or sometimes it’s an exciting industry because it’s still very early in the process. But at the same time, the industry is becoming more sophisticated rapidly. The sophistication is really starting to ramp up here, and it’s way more sophisticated now than it was even two years ago. And then, yeah, we’re looking to see what’s going to happen this month in terms of the plant and what happens with that and what, what changes, if any, occur from that situation too. So yeah, I.

Kevin Rosenquist: Gotta believe like if be a lot easier on you guys if it could just be federally legal. Right. Like and then there is or would it or would you think it would be the learning curve would be rough. Because then all of a sudden all these laws that you’ve been used to make, state laws might change, right?

John Tucker: Yeah. They could see it also depends what’s going to happen. Right. So we want to see what this final proposal is going to be. I know what a public comment period is right now based upon that proposal that was generated. But you know it could help with the tax situation. For example, if you are a dispensary owner, you can’t get all of, you know, the same deductions and tax deductions like a regular retailer can get is called the 280 law. So that law might be changed or modified. So we’re waiting to see what’s going to happen with it. And, you know, either way, we’re prepared for it in terms of how we built our routes out. We built our routes around the cannabis space, but we’ve been expanding rapidly outside of the cannabis vertical again, with that goal to be the fourth largest armored carrier in the US market. Right.

Kevin Rosenquist: So I live in Colorado. I moved here in 2015. Been to some dispensaries in my time here. And I’ll say that the experience has changed quite a bit. You know, it was really regimented before, kind of scary. Like you felt like you were doing something wrong. I remember like, like one of the times I went in there, I was kind of just casually talking about how, you know, I was just seeing if I could find something to help my wife sleep. And he was got all diplomatic. He’s like, sir, I can only sell to you and cannot condone you sharing it with someone else and something like that. You know, I was just like, okay, okay, forget I said anything. It’s for me. It’s for me. You know, I feel like nowadays it’s more chemy. It feels a little more relaxed. Do you see any of that in your dealings with more of the transportation side of things? Are things relaxing in a way where it’s kind of less intense or not so much?

John Tucker: Yeah, I think it’s a part of that sophistication aspect of the industry, you know? So it’s a couple of years ago, you know, everything. You know, it’s harder to get a bank account. It’s more of a the stigma there. I think the stigma is starting to come down. Yeah. It’s just becoming more acceptable. Right. From both a medical perspective and a recreational perspective. Yeah. , in terms of weed, a lot of education has been put out there and even more education. You know, I’m a guy that doesn’t really smoke weed that much. You know, I socially, socially I’ll drink and, you know, do some alcohol. But now, you know, you have cannabis products that are beverages. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So with that education that’s going out there, more people, in my opinion, are going to start to, , start to use the product and, and, and realize that from a recreational perspective, it’s more relaxing than alcohol. You know, alcohol kind of pps you up. Want to go fight somebody or something right now? Marijuana. You know, you kind of want to relax a little bit. You kind of want to hang out. So. And a lot of people don’t really know about that because of the stigma that was associated with it. I remember growing up, I remember the Michael Jackson cartoons and and the president saying, just say no to drugs.

Kevin Rosenquist: Say no.

John Tucker: Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of people have to be reeducated.

Kevin Rosenquist: Another service you guys offer is the cashless ATM solution, which is using your debit card at the point of sale, but it acts like you’re pulling from an ATM, which of course, is very common at dispensaries. Yeah. Why is it that it has to be a cashless ATM system, rather than swiping a debit card or even a credit card like any other establishment? I don’t know if I’m talking outside of your realm, but I was just curious. Like what? I’ve always wondered. Why? Why is it like that?

John Tucker: Yeah. So there’s a piece of legislation that’s been trying to get passed called the Safe Banking Act, or the Safer Banking Act, if that were to be passed, it would allow bankers, insurers, lenders, you know, basically financial service providers to do business with dispensaries in a much more efficient manner. And that could expand access to lending and the ability to accept credit cards, debit cards. Right now, in terms of the only compliant payment options for dispensary owners, it’s just cash and ACH right now in terms of compliance. So from a dispensary perspective, you know, you want to have an ATM in the corner and then, you know, people can go to that ATM, pull out cash to pay for product. And then at the point of sale system with the cashless ATMs, you want to have a solution that is not going to have that. You put your debit card in go, you put your Pin code, you don’t want it to go through the debit card networks because that’s a non-compliant solution. In addition to that, you don’t want to swipe a credit card either because that’s not compliant either. Some folks have tried going through the blockchain. That also had a lot of issues that’s not even regulated. Yeah.

Kevin Rosenquist: So that’s an interesting combination, right? Yeah. On an industry in the blockchain and crypto. Yeah.

John Tucker: It’s crazy because they’re just trying to come up with any way to try to accept like an electronic payment option. So I get it. You know what we do with our cashless ATM solution. When you put that debit card in, you put your Pin code in, it’s going to go to the ATM, not the debit card networks, so that it is, you know, structured as an actual. But that just occurred at but with these solutions. Yeah, it just gives the dispensary owner another option to their customers where if they want to use some type of card payment, electronic payment, you know, you could do that. But for the most part, yeah, it’s an entire cash all cash business right now into updates happen around the banking Situation.

Kevin Rosenquist: What other use cases are there for cashless ATMs?

John Tucker: In the cannabis space or outside in general? In general? In general, yeah, I would say another use case is, you know, obviously , maybe speed of payment. You know, if you’re going into a dispensary and you’re about to buy a bunch of edibles, you know, maybe you got some, some, some guys over, you guys are going to watch some, some football or something. You guys want to get high or something, man. You know, products can be pretty expensive. So you might not want to carry $200 or $300 on you. So it allows the customer to be able to access the product in a more efficient manner, not without having to carry a lot of cash. And also with the situation, you can set it up as a dispensary owner to where either you can round to the nearest dollar, or you can just give cash back at the point of sale, you know? Right. Yeah, that’s a use case. But basically it’s just for convenience for the customer for the most part, just giving them another option to acquire the product at the store. That’s what I would say Another.

Kevin Rosenquist: I’ve often thought about the security side of that industry just because there’s so much, you know, there’s so much cash, obviously, and there’s so much product in these places. You know, I asse they’d be pretty, pretty prime target of robberies and things like that. I mean, how is it something that happens often? I mean, how does how does NSA help mitigate the threat?

John Tucker: Well, I know I was reading a story about, like, one guy drove a car into a dispensary. You know, one of these. I forgot what state it was. I was reading the news, but, yeah, they get robbed. You know, they get some perpetrators that are targeting them because they know that they can only do, you know, and I’m the type of guy that I believe in cash as a payment option. And we still need to keep that. But I also believe in having other payment options too, because if you have so much cash sitting in the store, then that can alert people to potentially try to rob the location or do something else that they’re not supposed to do at the location, right? Like even internal theft. So, you know.

Kevin Rosenquist: You know that that’s an industry that’s not even allowed to take cards. So yeah, you know that there’s going to be a lot of at least not allowed to take cards in a traditional sense. So yeah. So, you know, even more that there’s going to be a lot of cash there.

John Tucker: There you go. Yeah. There you go. So, you know, it just , you know, hopefully some things change around that for the dispensary owner’s perspective. So they can have these other variety of different payment options. But in terms of what we’re doing to help the dispensary owners with that, I mean, we usually just provide education. We work with a lot of new dispensary owners as they’re just getting up and running. So they might come to us and say, hey, how are other dispensaries doing this particular method? Or how do they draft their SOPs? We’ll provide some, you know, either direct consulting or maybe give them a referral,, , other type of data. And then even, like I said earlier, with the smart save, the smart save can help out with that. In terms of an internal theft and external theft, those smart safes can be bolted to the ground. Okay. And without any cash inside, they’re anywhere between 250 pounds to 800 pounds. Just empty without cash. And so, you know, you’re gonna need a what, He-Man or something like that. Or an Avenger to come and pull this thing off the ground in there. Right. So, you know.

Kevin Rosenquist: Tenacity, man.

John Tucker: Yeah, the nasty guy. There we go, man. My superhero. Right? You know, so you’re gonna need some, you know, some type of strong force to get it out of the ground so we can vault it to the ground. And so, God forbid, if there is a robbery and attempt, it’s going to be hard for them to get it out. And also, here’s another thing with the Pin code, only the , again, as I said, when the user enters their Pin code, they can only deposit cash. They do not have access to open the door to the internal. Only the armored carrier can do so. That’s also another, you know, something else to also help out. If, God forbid, yes, she’ll have to tell them, hey, I cannot you know. So so it’s that and also some consulting.

Kevin Rosenquist: Okay, cool. So I’m, I’m a, I’m a child of the 80s and early 90s and, you know, I mean, Robert, you know, armored car robberies and stuff were big in the action flicks and stuff, sort of like probably like the train robberies when, like, you know, back in the way back days, like, is it still a thing? Like, does it happen very often? I mean, I don’t really read about it, but I’m, you know, I’m not really in the industry like you are.

John Tucker: Yeah. So last year there was a big spike in armored car robberies. Really? Yeah, it was a big spike in it because, you know, you see the trucks going down the street like the big Loomis trucks brings trucks. They have their logo on the side of the trucks. So people know that there’s cash.

Kevin Rosenquist: What it is. Yeah. Yeah.

John Tucker: You know, their cash in there. Even if you go on social media, some of the guys are following the trucks and they’re praying and say, Lord, please let the door open and the cash pull out, right. You know, so you got that stuff going on. And another thing, Kevin, to a lot of the big three armored carriers, they’ve moved to a one driver model. And what the one driver model means. You got one armored messenger at the beginning of the day. He’s loading up his truck. He’s. And then he gets in the vehicle. He’s doing all his routes. He has to he has to park the vehicle. He has to get out, get the currency, take it to the reset retailer, take currency out of the retailer. He’s doing all this work. We use a two driver model okay. So we’re going to have two drivers. It’s going to load their vehicle at the beginning of the day. One guy is driving and looking out, and the other guy is going in and out of the vehicle in and out of the retailer. And we found that helps boost both safety and quality.

John Tucker: And NST, we can pat ourselves on the back. We haven’t had a missed stop in over two years. You know, we haven’t had a missed stop in over two years. We don’t have again, knock on wood crimes. Yeah knock on wood right. You know so and that’s a good thing. And I think that two driver model really helps out. Because if there’s one guy doing everything, if he’s trying to break down an ATM, he’s trying to get currency in and out. He doesn’t know if some if a guy’s casing them out or not. Right. But if there’s a guy that’s sitting in the vehicle and he and he’s watching, he can point that out and be on alert. We also use members of former members of law enforcement or military personnel as our messengers. , you know, some of the other carriers might just hire anybody and get them licensed and bonded, which is not nothing wrong with that, right? But we just find that, you know, having a person that comes from that security background, it just brings a certain level. Again, competency, professionalism.

Kevin Rosenquist: , confidence, probably confidence. Just understanding how that stuff works. You know, you might think, oh yeah, I can handle that kind of a thing. But you get into it and it’s like, oh, there you.

John Tucker: Go. Right. Like like like, yeah. I’ve never been in security before. I’ve been a sales guy for 17 years. Yeah. Yeah. Put a gun on me. Put me in a truck. Right. I’m going to be a little bit anxious and. Yeah, in that.

Kevin Rosenquist: Situation.

John Tucker: Right? Yes. I’m just one guy in the vehicle. Right. So, yeah, we want to take that model and we’re still using that model going forward as we continue to grow. , we’re growing rapidly to over 20%. Some pretty exciting, some exciting stuff.

Kevin Rosenquist: Well, congrats on that. Final question. How are you worried about your Wolverines is out with a post Harbaugh tenure or do you think you’re good?

John Tucker: I’m a positive guy. You know, I don’t get too in the Law of Attraction stuff, but I like to speak the positive stuff out there. Sure. I want to say I’m good, man. I’m going to say I’m right now. I’m also a big Detroit Lions guy, too. So I think that the Detroit Lions are going to go to the Super Bowl this year. So it’s a.

Kevin Rosenquist: Very good shot. I’m a bears fan. So we’re rivals. But, , I’m just happy to see someone other than the Packers at the top, to be honest with you.

Kevin Rosenquist: In.

John Tucker: The great you know, the Packers are still a young team, but they might, , they might give us a run for their money this year. And you guys got that new quarterback.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah I’m.

Kevin Rosenquist: Excited. It was a little heartbreaking for you to see JJ go to the Vikings.

John Tucker: I wish he would have went anywhere but the Vikings right. You know. But we’ll see what happens. The NFC North looks especially.

Kevin Rosenquist: In a couple of years. It could be real good. Yeah they’re all young too. So yeah.

Kevin Rosenquist: Exciting stuff.

John Tucker: Because usually the NFC North is like you said it’s the Packers and nobody.

Kevin Rosenquist: Else and nobody else. Yeah yeah everyone else is way below 500. And then the rest just seem to always get up there and yeah right right.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah. So now we got.

John Tucker: More teams.

Kevin Rosenquist: At least. Fun. Yeah. Exactly. All right. Well John, thank you very much for joining me. It was great chatting with you. And best of luck with Wnst and good luck with your Wolverines and to a lesser extent, your lions.

Kevin Rosenquist: There you go. Thanks, Kevin. Great speaking with you.